Convention Series: Dr. Robert Smith Jr - One Mission

During the Alabama Baptist Convention, Dr. Rick Lance and Dr. Robert Smith Jr. were able to sit down and spend some time talking about ministry. Dr. Smith’s personal call to ministry and reflections on ministry issues of the past that impact the ministries of the present are just a few things you’ll find in this episode.

Book discussed:
Doctrine That Dances: Bringing Doctrinal Preaching and Teaching to Life

The One Mission Podcast is a production of the Alabama Baptist State Board of Missions.

Transcript

Rick Lance (00:00):
Well, listeners, this is one mission in the podcast we have is our second guest in the series that's coming, A good friend and a dear brother, Dr. Robert Smith, Jr. Well known for being the Prince of Preachers among us. I call him a living legend. I even described him this night at the State Convention as being an example of a human word, capital W, human word, streaming. And that's exactly what he is. He takes a word of God and brings a message that is so profound, yet simple. The application to our lives is real. So thank you for being who you are and allowing God to use you the way you have. Robert.

Robert Smith Jr. (00:39):
God be praised. Dr. Lance, so good to be

Rick Lance (00:42):
With you. What we'd like to just delve into, uh, take us back to when you felt your call to ministry. Just, just take a moment and let our listeners know what the Pilgrim bitch has been like.

Robert Smith Jr. (00:54):
Well, I accepted my call to the preachy ministry when I was 17, but God was up to something, um, immediately upon my conversion at seven years old of age. Rather, I was, um, saved at the Rose Chapel Baptist Church in ah, Cincinnati, Ohio. I had, uh, my Eli, I was the Samuel, but my Eli was my pastor. Oh, pastor Elijah Lee Alexander from Pine Bluff, Arkansas. He was rigorous. He demanded excellence. We needed to know, I needed to know the Baptist, um, church Covenant. I needed to know the Articles of Faith. All 24 of them, I'm talking about, uh, by age nine nine. Uh, he demanded that of me. My parents gave me to him. Um, we didn't use the term, didn't have the term then, but that's what he was doing. He was my mentor. Mm-hmm. And so he disciplined me and disciplined my thinking.

(01:51):
And, um, um, people began to see that God was hand was upon me. Apparently they would say he's gonna preach, he's got the bar. So in the African American tradition to have a mark. Right. Didn't mean you had something on your head, isn't it not, not like some kind of on your heart. And, uh, my mother was my protector and she said, don't tell little Robert, cause my, my father was Robert Senior, that he's gonna preach. The Lord will tell him that cuz she didn't want me to answer the call based upon other people's impressions. Right. And so, um, she watered them off. But, um, by 17, I, I mean, I'd reached a point wherever God would take me, whether it was to be a missionary or a Christian education minister or whatever it was, I was willing to do it. And I, I got saved, uh, when I was seven. I accepted my call when I was 17 at the new Mission Baptist Church. And I would later, 10 years after I accepted my call at that place, I became the pastor of that congregation and stayed there for 28 years.

Rick Lance (02:50):
That's wonderful. And being a professor of preaching, by the way, I'm, I know a lot of people are, and you hear this, but I'm a con sue of preaching. I'm not the best at it, but I love the best when I hear it. And you're in that category, I want you to know that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I believe it was Phillips Brooks who said, preaching is communicating divine truth to human personality.

Robert Smith Jr. (03:14):
That's what he said.

Rick Lance (03:14):
Which is a, a good simple definition.

Robert Smith Jr. (03:17):
Absolutely.

Rick Lance (03:18):
If you were to offer a definition, it's off the top of your head. Nothing has to be profound or just practical. What, what would be your definition of preaching? Would it be close to that

Robert Smith Jr. (03:28):
Or, yeah. Uh, I would say preaching is ushering the hero. Ah, by the word of God into the presence of Christ, the son of God.

Rick Lance (03:42):
Yes.

Robert Smith Jr. (03:42):
Through the power of the Spirit of God for the purpose of transformation. Hmm. So I've taken usher people by the word of God. That's the only way I can usher them. The word has to, um, lead us, escort us right by the Word of God into the presence of Christ, the Son of God, because the word points to Christ. Yeah. The Bible is not so much about the planet of salvation, it's about the man of salvation who comes to fulfill the planet of salvation. Mm. And then once he is, he or she is ushered into the presence of God, uh, by the power of the Spirit of God, word and spirit pointing us to Christ for the end result of transformation because I can't transform anyone. Right. And, uh, but it's, it's the word that transforms people so that when people come down the aisle, I can't take credit for it after I preach. And when they don't come down aisle, I don't beat up myself. Right. Cause all I'm doing is sewing or I am watering. He is given the increase.

Rick Lance (04:51):
Amen. And I want you to know, I think you've used that before it flowed so well, and it's actually the best definition I've ever heard. Oh. It's very descriptive of all the elements of what preaching is about. One thing today, uh, I think I want you to encourage those who are preaching. Some of our listeners, many of them perhaps are preachers. Would you give them an encouraging word in these discouraging times about being steadfast and faithful in the calling God has on their lives to preach the word.

Robert Smith Jr. (05:23):
Yeah. Um, this is not necessarily a definition or if you will an illustration exact in exactitude for preaching, but it's the father, the waiting father who has poured into the son who is the chronical son. He puts the word of the way in him. The word of the way in him. Yeah. He goes, he even though he gets out of the way of the word and goes into a far country, he can't get the word of the way outta him. Oh yeah. He gets out of the way of the word and goes into a far country and wastes his goods and rioters living and all of that lives in the hog pen for a while, would eat the food that is being fed to the hogs. He's a Jew and he has a worst job in the world taking care of hogs. Right. Pigs. But then he comes to himself in the hog pen.

(06:25):
There is no choir that is inspiring him to come to himself. There's no sermon, no one's passing out tracks. Nothing. No one is witnessing to him. They only knows he hears is onk, onk, onk. That's all. But the Bible says he comes to himself because though he got out of the way of the word, he couldn't get the word of the way out of him. And he says to himself, I'm going back to my father's house and I'm gonna say to my father, I've sinned against heaven and I've sinned against, uh, you and I'm no longer worthy. Called your son. Make me one of the heart servants. Mm-hmm. Where did he get that from? Because the word of the way was put in him, even though he got out of the way of the word, it was the word of the way that was in him that got him back in the way of the word.

(07:12):
And he goes back home. So when, when we preach and there downtown down times their recessions, uh, sometimes the church is, uh, it's not going forward or backwards. It's just standing still, their rejections, all of that. Your job. And my job is to preach and believe that God's word will not return void, but it will accomplish that for which it was sent. When will it accomplish that we are not told how? We are not told. But it will, it'll come back like this prodigal son came back. So I will encourage my fellow colleagues, uh, of the gospel to keep on putting the word of the way in your people and trust that, that word, like a time release capsule, like a person taking a medicinal capsule may not work. Just like that may have a delayed reaction, but it will have results. It will go off and people will make their way back to obedience. You'll see it, you'll see 'em coming alive and being re-energized. Revival has taken place without it being scheduled. Have confidence in the word that you preach. Don't put God on a time schedule. Let God work. And when he works, it'll be an amazing thing. It will increase your confidence in the gospel that can never ever fail. Amen to that. While you were speaking

Rick Lance (08:54):
There, there I had a deep reflection over the decades and, you know, those years turned into decades. Oh yes. Yeah. Well, many decades ago when I first started, I was in seminary and I saved up enough money to buy the series 20 centuries of great

Robert Smith Jr. (09:12):
Preachers. Yes, sir. I know great, great

Rick Lance (09:14):
Preachers. And I remember the early church fathers all the way up to say a little bit beyond the mid 19, uh, 19 hundreds and the mid 20th century. But I was reflecting as you were in my mind, and I was, this is the next question. This is a flowing time of conversation. I I'm sure you're familiar with that, that sort of that series.

Robert Smith Jr. (09:37):
I am transcendent. Uh,

Rick Lance (09:38):
Yes. Well, if you want to give us four or five highlights of great preachers from the very beginning, from the early fathers all the way, you, you go endlessly if you wanted to. Yeah. I'll tell you that volume did a lot for me to understand the history of preaching. Yeah. And so, I I you're the, you're the man that has the knowledge about that. You teach it, you do well at it. Could you just give us a description of some of those great earlier

Robert Smith Jr. (10:07):
Preachers? Well, it's a great volume. Um, I think of Augustine or some call him Augustine. Yes. Like tomato or tomato.

Rick Lance (10:18):
Yes.

Robert Smith Jr. (10:19):
Um, 3, 3 54 to four 30 ad

Rick Lance (10:27):
That's

Robert Smith Jr. (10:27):
Right. Great. Mind rhetorician, he wrote the first homiletics text on the doctrinal on Christian doctrinal. Yeah. Teaching Christian doctrine. He was, he was powerful in that. He had a powerful conversion experience that was important.

Rick Lance (10:44):
Amen to that.

Robert Smith Jr. (10:45):
You know, he said to God, knowing that he was living in, in, in impurity, immorality, Lord make me pure, but not now.

Rick Lance (10:54):
<laugh>. Yeah.

Robert Smith Jr. (10:55):
So, but, but he got that. God saved him from that. And, uh, um, the greatest mind, I think, I think the greatest mind in church history, uh, since Paul, I really do Wow. Greatest agree with that. So I, um, he would be one, definitely would be one. He said something that, cause he wanted to bring the head and the heart together. He says, I know when I really preached, he says, not when people applaud, but when they are tears. What he meant by that, he wasn't talking about emotionalism, but when, when what people know, they feel to the point that that, uh, it is expressed in their tears. They're touched emotionally as well as, um, wrestling and mentally. So he's one, uh, I would say, uh, that, um, John Calvin has to be Yeah. Uh, considered a among, uh, the greatest 1509 to 1564. So he didn't live a long time, uh, institutes of the Christian religion and went through eight revisions.

(12:00):
Um, something like 1200 pages. Uh, first copy, 1536. So you're talking about a book that's, um, been an extent will almost be 500 years. Hey, that's pretty good <laugh>. It's <laugh> that's Yes, sir. But a great, um, a great theologian once again, um, called, wanted to be a Theo, um, a lawyer. Yes. God called him to be a preacher. And he, um, he had a profound understanding of preaching a church is for, for him, wherever there is a preaching of the gospel and the right administration of the sacraments. He said, plus he would add and discipline. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> very end is a church. That's what, so he was a disciplinarian. He was a great teacher. Um, and he went against the tide, in this case, the Roman Catholic Church. Um, cause all that's all there was. That's right. In order to, um, bring the church back to what he and others called Ed FTE's back to, uh, the, the, um, uh, the, the, the basic things of Christianity.

(13:13):
Um, back to the original things that were taught as primary truths from the Book of Acts. So he would be one. Now let me move to, um, the 20th century, uh, Gardner Taylor. Yes, sir. Would be one. Gardner, Calvin Taylor, pastor, the Concord Baptist Church of Christ from 1942 to, no, 1948 to 1990. That's what it was. Yeah. And, um, um, significant in terms he would be considered the poet lare a word molder, uh, involved, uh, in holistic ministry. Uh, being the president of the New York, uh, city Board of Education, um, um, prince of, of preachers all over, all five continents. World Baptist, national World Baptist Alliance. So many times, uh, you go on and on and on. But he would definitely be one. I would definitely say, um, let's say him. I'll name two others. It's very difficult. Uh, I would, uh, think, um, that we would consider, um, uh, I I I I think that, um, Charles WeDo for his illustrations Yes.

(14:40):
Oh yeah. Um, for his ability to communicate. Yes. I mean, his content was solid, but he could communicate so well with any audience and any aids I would have to lift him as a one of the, one of the real effective preachers. And then finally, a fella by the name of Hadden Robinson. Hmm. Hadden Robinson. Um, president of Denver Baptist Conservative University, uh, uh, seminary. And of course he went on to Gordon Conwell. He taught out there and all that. And it is written a textbook that I, um, that has been in use since 1981, is when it was first, uh, written. So 41 years, but a tremendous exegete he could handle the scripture. Yes. With application always. He said that what interested in he, what interested him in, uh, preaching was how preaching could be effective. What made it effective. He says, I wanted to know what it took for a sermon that lasted an hour to seem like it lasted 20 minutes. Mm. Yeah. And then to take a sermon that lasted 20 minutes to seem like it lasted in an hour.

Rick Lance (15:57):
Yeah.

Robert Smith Jr. (15:59):
And he perfected that so he could take and squeeze content by guarding his words and developing his thought so that the sermon could really last 45 minutes. And when he got done, you wonder, 45 minutes. I just thought he got up. Yeah. Cause he could hold an audience, not by entertaining, not by any kind of, um, um, carnival tactics, but by the way, he handled the word. Amen. Those five

Rick Lance (16:35):
Being a little bit of a student of history, I guess I'd have to throw in a couple of additional ones. Jonathan Edwards and Charles, spinning. Oh my goodness. And George Whitfield. Ah, yeah. Yeah. Those, those men. And they're, they, yes, sir. And Giants and Phil

Robert Smith Jr. (16:52):
Are no question. Yes sir.

Rick Lance (16:53):
We, we, we still read about No question. I remember in high school, I read Jonathan Edwards sermon sinner in the hands of thank

Robert Smith Jr. (16:59):
God. Oh.

Rick Lance (17:01):
And of course they wouldn't allow you to read that. Now.

Robert Smith Jr. (17:03):
That's what I was gonna ask you. They let you read that.

Rick Lance (17:04):
Yes, sir. Uh, yeah. I, I was back in the, the peaceful times, I guess you wanna call that. And I, I, I was already, my heart was already being tuned up by looking back and seeing that. And I read the, that as a, as an example of profound preaching. It was with an effective motivation of people. Absolutely. Also, I think about the George Whitfield effect on America. He had effect on people's thinking. He did about the creation of who we are as a constitution, declaration of Independence.

Robert Smith Jr. (17:40):
That, that's, that's

Rick Lance (17:41):
Correct. He, he just was the, a stellar absolutely. Example of what it meant to be effective. And that booming voice, it's hard to imagine at an open field. That's what he did. Do you remember Benjamin Franklin? What

Robert Smith Jr. (17:54):
He's, he said,

Rick Lance (17:54):
Yes, sir. And that is amazing. Here I am doing all the talking. Here's so

Robert Smith Jr. (17:58):
Talking. No, no, no,

Rick Lance (17:59):
No. But those individuals, I, I can't get enough of that. And then think I even want to add even John Wesley, uh, thinking about, no doubt about putting on the horseback like he did. Yeah. Covering England Yeah. And having some tragedies in his life. Yes, he did. Even among his children. Yes, he did. So indeed, I'd, I'd add those. And then we might not, if we're ho politicians say that Bitta Graham in the traditional sense was a great preacher, but he was an effective evangelistic communicator.

Robert Smith Jr. (18:34):
That's exactly right. Dr. William. And

Rick Lance (18:36):
There was this, there was a Billy Graham effect. That's exactly right. I went to his crusades, my wife and I and my oldest daughter went to the last one. And I was sitting there, I've told people I was sitting there and there were about 300 languages being spoken. And I was just listening to the gospel being

(18:53):
Just echoed out in different languages. And where I was sitting, we had to separate cause of crowds so big where I was sitting. I was the only Caucasian there. And I felt blessed by the fact that people were hearing a man, a simple man coming out of humble background Yes, sir. Being used of God to be so effective. Now, as mathematicians, we could take his sermons and kind of pick them apart. But again, the effect, he was just effective communicated. Absolutely. So I appreciate all of that. And, and let me say, I want to segue just as some something else. Are you opt hopeful about the future of preaching in our churches? Do you, you're teaching students now, you feel good hopeful about the future.

Robert Smith Jr. (19:41):
Yes, but I'm spoiled.

Rick Lance (19:44):
Yes, sir.

Robert Smith Jr. (19:45):
Because the students that I have the privilege of teaching, they come into the classroom with a hermaneutic of ascent that is agreement with scripture. They already agree. Right.

Rick Lance (19:58):
This

Robert Smith Jr. (19:58):
Is God's word. It's not just a book like Gulliver's travel, something like, God, this is God's word. Um, in two minutes, seminaries and colleges, you have to fight and argue to try to prove that which is, um, true already. And they struggle with that. They don't believe in the inspiration of scripture. Yeah. They think that there are of terror, Mary Daley in scripture, they are marcian knights of the 21st century marcian who jettison or through overboard, the Old Testament, because it presented a God of terror and wrath. And only preach, didn't preach all the New Testament, but most of the New Testament. See, so they come in, uh, that way. My students, they don't, they know. But I, I have, uh, confidence that preaching as, um, is experiencing a rebound. I really, really, really do believe that is doing that because we don't have any other choice.

(21:14):
Hmm. We've run out of innovative ideas and catchy gadgets, and we tried this and that, and this thing at the turn of the 20th century, the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man in every way, we are getting better and better really. And we can, so you're not getting better and better. We're getting worse and worse and all these other things not working. Therefore, the only thing that really works permanently and helps people, even though the conditions don't change. People see individuals who are grounded in the word of God. And they're like trees that wrap their roots around each other, planted by the rivers of water. And the wind blows them. But all they do is lock their roots together. They bow, but they don't break. And everyone else, all these other things, they're breaking. And no, it's, it has become, I, I believe, I believe that because it's become a necessity now. And there is no other option for many other people. They see

Rick Lance (22:23):
That. I have to agree with you. I can echo that I'm on the seminary campuses some and my role, and I'm impressed with what the future holds there. Yeah. Now they're a select, they're like Navy Seals. They're a select group. <laugh>. Yeah. I I love the Navy seals. That's good. I call 'em the elites. That's good. The ones who really are hungry for the word of God, hungry to serve the Lord in such a way that their lives are secondary to the primary purpose. Absolutely.

Robert Smith Jr. (22:49):
Lord.

Rick Lance (22:50):
Yes. And in many ways, they, uh, are hardly better at it than my generation. Yes. Yes. Even though there were a lot of us who were baby boomers

Robert Smith Jr. (22:58):
Coming along.

Rick Lance (22:58):
Yes. I I must ask though, I know you don't wanna talk about yourself, I'd rather talk about you a lot, <laugh>, cuz I do often, but I don't want you to tell us a little bit about one of your books, doctrine that dances, doctrines and dances.

Robert Smith Jr. (23:13):
Yeah. Um, doctrine that dances is a, um, an attempt at excelling in preaching and teaching the word of God to lift up this thought. Doctrine does not need to be boring. What's boring is not doctrine, but the presenter, and I'm not talking about flashy this and this, I'm talking about looking at the raw naked text and letting it dance and not drag mm-hmm. <affirmative> dance, but not drag the poetry that's there. Right. You know, uh, God rides on the winds of clouds and, you know, um, various. So that's what I, I think that, um, that doctrine is the life of the church, but it can't be dead. Doctrine, doctrine always points beyond itself. It never points sign, it never points back to itself. It points to someone beyond itself. So if you talking about the doctrine of redemption, which is what Job was talking about in Job 1925 through 27, I know that my redeemer not redemption.

(24:41):
I know that my redeemer lives. Hmm. And at the latter day, he, my redeemer shall stand up on the earth. And after the skin, worms had avid, my body, yet in my flesh shall I see God, whom I shall see for myself. And my eyes should not behold another. He's not talking about redemption, he's talking about redeemer. Cause when I go into, um, um, a restaurant, I don't care how beautiful the menu is, you'd be gold, platted, and all kinds of curly, uh, writing fashionable, writing fancier, all that stuff. And, uh, here the selections, I can't eat the menu. Yeah. I look at the menu, I look, but what I want is what the menu points to chicken, steak, salmon. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> doctrine is the menu. Hmm. But it points to the one who is the bread of life. Hmm. It points to the one that the psalmist says, oh, taste and see that the Lord is good.

(25:50):
So that's what I'm, that's really what I'm trying to do. How do you present doctrine as a communicator of scripture, Christian, preacher, teacher, whatever. How do you present it in such a way that it, um, exalts Christ and you see him in a glorious way and that excites you because now you can intelligently worship the one that you know you've experienced with. It's not just something, you got to have an intellectual foundation. It can't just be emotional. Your emotion must be based upon the correct doctrine. And if that's the case, then you can worship him, not only in spirit, but worship him in truth. That's what I'm after.

Rick Lance (26:35):
Well, that is a good analysis of your book. And it's a very, what I marvel at you, in you is your ability to illustrate with common things like a menu. I mean, I, I would look at a menu and never be able to translate that into an illustration. So I have to say, in the most positive way, I envy you in so many ways. God has gifted you with that ability to see truth. Where some of us just see objects and mundane things. I want to thank you for your time tonight, and I want you to know that your presence and our state convention that we just held <laugh>, that's beautiful. You, uh, you really, you really helped us so much to understand how we can celebrate. That's been our theme. Psalm 100 and you, you brought the lights on. You just turned the lights on for us.

(27:26):
And I, I wanna, I, I never butter anyone up, but you're one of the most interesting people that I'm ever able to be around. And I'll, I'll tell you this. I said this to Willie McLaren. I Dear brother, oh yes. Some people, I'm around. I, I'm a little tense, but there's a, there are people like you and him, it calms me down. You just have that calming effect. So thank you for sharing what God has endowed you with and your gifts to the glory and honor of him. Oh, it's, we thank you for being a part of this one Mission podcast. I appreciate it. God bless you. Thank you. Thank you, brother. Thank you, brother.